My mind is not closed completely John

Why you say that ? Because I ask Questions that stir things up ....

Let me give you a clue on something , I m not the only one that wants these questions answered ,It just seems that Im the only one brave enough to ask them.

I just cant seem to get it why spending more money to belong to a group that really cant help me out. I may as well send in 250.$ to the carpenters org. there going to help my business grow just as fast as pwna .

WHAT CAN THE PWNA DO FOR OUR BUSINESS?

WHAT ARE THEY DOING FOR OUR BUSINESS?

and WHY DO YOU GUYS GET ALL FLUSTERED WHEN I ASK THESE QUESTIONS?

I WILL TELL YOU WHY >>>>>>>> MOST OF YOU DONT KNOW THE ANSWER . So the next best thing to do is get pissed at the guy who ask them .

**Hot-Rod **
Restoring A 1949 Studebaker!!
Complete Major Overhaul.

My mind is not closed completely John

Dan is it completely open or half open or half closed?

Why you say that ? Because I ask Questions that stir things up

A better question would be why do you enjoy stiring things up about the PWNA?

Let me give you a clue on something , I m not the only one that wants these questions answered ,It just seems that Im the only one brave enough to ask them

Not so, but a lot of others might not want to continue asking the same questions for years and years. Dan you know the answers but keep harping on it, WHY?

I just cant seem to get it why spending more money to belong to a group that really cant help me out. I may as well send in 250.$ to the carpenters org. there going to help my business grow just as fast as pwna.

Then send your money to them, and then tell us what the carpenters org. has done for you.

WHAT CAN THE PWNA DO FOR OUR BUSINESS?

What do you want it to do for your business?

WHAT ARE THEY DOING FOR OUR BUSINESS?

Pretty much the same question worded with a slight twist to it. Answer is above.

WHY DO YOU GUYS GET ALL FLUSTERED WHEN I ASK THESE QUESTIONS?

Why do most guys get flustered, oh wait you already answered it below, or did you?

I WILL TELL YOU WHY >>>>>>>> MOST OF YOU DONT KNOW THE ANSWER .

Ok if we don't know that answer who does, or is there really any one answer to that question?

So the next best thing to do is get pissed at the guy who ask them.

Dan who says people are pissed at the guy who ask the question, I would think it is more like does this guy have anything better to do then for years keep knocking the only organization around for pressure washers?

Now as I said in another post, if you put nothing into something you get nothing out of it and your not putting anything constructive in so you will get nothing out of it, other then show others your hate for the organization.

------------------------

Now to all people here, if anyone, pro or con on the PWNA expects it to offer things when you don't offer to help that happen just what do you expect.

It takes numbers for any org. to grow, the larger the org. the more other types of businesses are willing to offer those members benefits.

Did Costco, Wal-mart and other large companies become large by people NOT going there and buying or did it get large because people DID go and buy?

Same for PWNA, or any org. the more members the more it can go out and get the benefits members want.

Fight for what you believe in fine, but stop putting things down you don't believe in.

And for sure don't know something till you try it.

And Dan you do know the answers, you just get a kick out of seeing how people are going to reply to it.

WHY Dan S. do you get such a charge of of asking the same question for years and years?

Everyone knows you hate the PWNA, so what, it is a free world so hate if you must but keep your hate under control, keep it to yourself.

All you really do is show others the bad side of you, but then you enjoy that too.

Put it to rest once and for all, and remember YOU will never benefit from the PWNA no matter what it might offer in the future since you would never be a member.

Email:bigjon@comcast.net
http://www.gen2genbooks.com

okay jon u win .... this always turns into what is happening .

MAYBE BECAUSE MY QUESTIONS NEVER GETS ANSWERED!!

you were totally against the pwna you quit then became a new member ...... and you did say some things against the pwna when you did quit . but now you re-joined and no-body esle can say anything without you taking offence .... well well well we have a stale mate .............. but YOU WIN !

I wont stop speaking out to get answers ....and I wont let this turn into a Jon and Dan thread ........ so my friend Pat your self on the back ....you did it again!!!!!!!!!!!!

All I wanted was info. what can the pwna do for us?
how can it help us?
who gets the money?
and why pay somebody money for a meeting when all you got to do is get out and do the job and learn from it .

where is all the help?
will they (pwna) help us in a court battle?
will it help get future jobs?
will it work on a inexpensive Ins. plan?

Those are the questions at hand ..........What the heck is so hard with it ?

YOU WIN !!

**Hot-Rod **
Restoring A 1949 Studebaker!!
Complete Major Overhaul.

PWNA works well for those who want to devote time and money into a concept that will promise nothing. Networking on a national scale works but how does it help you? If it works for you great.

For the rest of us the concept lack focus and viable programs. However with the numbers help of the Window Cleaners, they will gain other look good programs.

I left PWNA for IKECA because of the focus of a single service market. For my needs, focus is most important, because it keeps your eye on the ball & the networking of single minded owners is for the most part a better option for me.

David

<font color=e87400>John T.

In another thread at a later date I will respond to your post here. There is much to debate on both sides of our fence. Personally I don't consider it bickering by a long shot. It's just good ole healthy debate. Helps keep the blood pumping. Your latest post there is right on track. I'll explain to you later how so & how whether you realize it or not you are in effect we are somewhat on the same page.

For now & am going to try & keep this somewhat on track for the sake of the issue at hand & any people that try to come here & make sense of it.

Hydro-Emulsification Surface Preparation Specialist

<font color=e87400>Jon, You know I love you man When I have I ever gotten upset with you

Like I said to John T, It's just he nature of the beast for p00p to happen. You show someone how to increase their profits within an industry they are already working & with a client base they already have simply via offering an additional service, they're gonna do it! Well, the smart ones anyway.

How many window cleaner do you work with? 3? 4? Go talk to 650 of them & see what happens Even it they only do windows this does not mean they won't diversify.

That other sentence up there that I quoted from you.. what the hell are you trying to say . LOL, I think your saying something to the effect of.. "Why would anyone doing windows, which is an easy job, want to do pressure cleaning." That's kind of a no-brainer to answer. It's PROFITS. Besides that statement is pretty much so refutted in the link that I provided in the orginal post here in which you can see that 290 of the 650 IWCA members already offer Pressure Cleaning service in one way or the other!

Why get them keyed up to do more?

Hydro-Emulsification Surface Preparation Specialist

Cody I deal with two window cleaners, main reason is they both are dependable and do only windows with no desire to get into anything else.

I see guys who do windows and awnings here, seems to be market for that in our area.

I see some PW guys doing windows, I suppose it can be a good deal if you can do it all.

I had a customer ask me to do their windows, I asked about pricing online but when I got all the information I could not see it as for me.

I mean I do get windows wet and I do wipe them off but not like I clean them totally.

-------

Dan S. I am not in a win or lose thing with you, I don't hate you for voicing your feelings.

I admit I was a member, quit, bashed them, rejoined, all history, let it die ok, thank you.

Two questions Dan S.

1o you know of a better Org. for pressure washers as of this time then PWNA?

2:Have you ever attended a round table?

2a: If yes did you enjoy it and meet some nice competitors?

2b: If no, why not, it is not about how much do you charge or who are your customers but a way to meet competitors on a friendly off the job way and talk, shop, sports, cars, trucks, boats and whatever.

------

I belong to my local Chamber yet I get no referrals from them nor work. Still from a business point of view it shows I am more legit then some who are not members for any org.

Jon

Email:bigjon@comcast.net
http://www.gen2genbooks.com

<font color=e87400>
Hi Doc

Glad you chimed in here.

It was not my intention to see this turned into a PWNA bashing thead. For my particular concern here bashing the PWNA is absolutely anti-productive.

No. I don't think it is the intention of the IWCA members to "steal" our local business. However, isn't expansion & diversification a natural process of any business? Wouldn't you agree that there will be many IWCA members that will be looking at the Pressure Cleaning Industry through enthusastic eyes after this Joint Convention? Wouldn't you agree that of those wild eyed members several will choose to pursue the market, especially seeing that there are already 290 IWCA members that are offering Pressure Cleaning in some form or fashion. Wouldn't you also agree that of the 650 members, & especially the 290, that the the majority are more than likely positioned with accounts which would serve as a pretty easy sell for "Additional Services"

To say no to any of the above is merely denial. Here's the real trigger. I would assume that since you are in the position of Pres for the PWNA you are probably a pretty fair business person. Being so, put yourself into their shoes.

Assume for the moment that you are Joe Windowman. You have 100 commercial customers. You started cleaning windows early on & it's pretty much what you know. You are good at it & have been successful. Now comes along this Joint Convention & you learn about Pressure Cleaning. You meet the people, you meet the vendors & you go to the seminars. You learn about $100 an hour and 40% gross profits, ~vs~ your $40 an hour & 7% gross profits, the vendors tell you how easy it really is when you have the right equipment. Others in the business say how great it is, they tell you about the PWNA, the BBS's etc etc.. The "hype" is in the air. So, what would "YOU" now do?

Would you say, wow, that was great, but it's not for me. Or Wow that's great, I can go & purchase a $8k rig & make it back on my current accounts in no time, for that matter I could go out & actually presell my current acounts in order to get a feel, this way on a cash accrual balance sheet the out of pocket equipment cost would be free! I could come out with a heavy discount, say 50%, to my existing customers for their first 3 months of service in order to A) Cut any competing bid for my first 3 months thus cutting out any & all competition after which time since I already have the rapport with the customers chances are they won't entertain any other bids until there is a restructure in management B) cover my start-up cost of this new venture & C) cover my cost for my Learning curve & training period. This way not only will my equipment be free, I could even get paid to learn it. If I only close 20% of my current client base & add a few I could have 2, maybe 3 rigs going in no time. WOW, that PWNA Joing Convention was AWESOME!!

Top that off with:
<li>Well there is that guy from the PWNA that pressure cleans for many of my customers I'd better not do it. His well being is more important than my own.

Perhaps this is just a matter of how one views Oppurtunity!

I've noticed that many in this business really only view their businesses as a glorified JOB! They are content with a single man operation & single man operation money, enough to get by maybe a little more. My idea of success is to have 10 offices with 10 crews each, with 10 GM managing them & 1DM overseeing all that while I am off in Costa Rica enjoying beautiful sunsets & sipping Margarita's on the beach with my wife, only draw back there is she'd probably bring her mother along too! Gonna be hard to attain that though with competitive pressure increasing at ratio's of what they have been for the past 4 years!

Internal Networking is OK, but Networking with potential competitors is bad, i.e; IWCA, Newbies,, anyone that is positioned, Janitorial, Sweepers etc etc. If this seminar were with IKECA or CETA or even some outside related field like Lumber companies, Builders etc etc... I'd have no complaints, well perhaps a wee bit depending on the organization, but not to the extent that I do here.

Keep in mind here too that some people in this business are operating on perhaps a grander scale than others. If you're only doing a couple of zippy marts, a target, & a couple of banks & that's all you want, then yeah,, why care about this. But some of the "Contractors" are cleaing massive properties or Multiple properties that may tally as much or more than $100,000 a pop in annual revenues. Some may have several accounts like this. Even looking at smaller accounts like $20k a year what would your take on this be if you were to lose just one of these due to this Joint Convention? A $20k a $100k. Chew on that a bit!

Cody

Hydro-Emulsification Surface Preparation Specialist

For me this is all I will say, no more since this is not a right or wrong post when it comes to the PWNA.


There are no winners and losers, there is no I told you so, you believe in it or you don't.

All these years it has been bashed, that really does more harm the good.

Can all of us, those that do not believe in it and those that do stop the bashing.

Asking what does it offer ME, as I said, nothing if you don't believe in it.

What can if offer YOU, what do you want it to offer?

Now there is a question worth answering.


Just what do you guys and gals want the PWNA to offer you?

Email:bigjon@comcast.net
http://www.gen2genbooks.com

Cody,
I love these type of posts that you started here. These are the type of posts that make people really think which is the reason I enjoy them so much.

Doc Reisman or Mike Hughes explained it to you as clear as day as to why there is a joint convention. IT saves Money and between the two there is more Money to spend so we can get some more credited speakers to help Educate us in this Business.

That appears to be the main reason as to having a Joint Convention. At least thats my take on it.

Hell, It cost a $100,000/hr to get Bill Clinton to speak at a Convention(Talk about a waste of $$$$ )

Of course there might be a few Window Cleaners and Powerwashers who are there to Hone in on other peoples business but such is life.

They could always go to the PWNA convention some where else and try to do the same thing. Once again such is life. Your reading into this to much even though you do make alot of fair statements which I don't and can't disagree with.(THe beauty of Debates).

I have to say that I don't see EYE to EYE with you on this but I do respect your Opinion mainly because of the way you are expressing yourself which is with alot of Intellect. I don't feel at all that you are bashing the PWNA but I will say this...You would probably be a great Member for them to have. In a wierd way(Your going to hate this) just like Ron Musgraves is. ORganizations of anytype can use Controversial people in it to help keep them Honest.....Once again such is life.

John Tornabene
Clean County Powerwashing