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View Poll Results: <font color=e87400><b>Read post 1st.</b> Do you feel that having the Joint convention
Is a good decision & will help our industry 12 34.29%
Is a Bad decision & may increase competitive pressure in our industry 7 20.00%
Is something that you couldn't careless about. 8 22.86%
Is something worth more thought 4 11.43%
Doesn't matter on our businesses as contractors one way or the other 4 11.43%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-03
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Cody
Default Contractors / PWNA / IWCA

<font color=e87400>
<p>Fellow Pressure Cleaning Contractors. It has recently come to my attention that this year the PWNA is hosting it’s <a href="http://www.pwna.org/convention_shows/annualshows.htm" target="_blank">2004 Annual Seminar</a> as a Joint convention with the IWCA (International Window Cleaners Association)

<p>Frankly I am somewhat dismayed at this on multiple levels. PWNA is supposed to be an organization for the POWER WASHING CONTRACTORS! The PWNA was supposedly formed to assist the Power Washing contractor advance & gain a Competitive edge over others within the industry & to add a bit of distinction to it’s members.

<p>Why in the world would ANY Power Washing Contractor want to introduce the Window Cleaning Industry to ours? Perhaps some don’t realize the impact that this could have on our/your business.

<li><I>For the residential guys probably not much but perhaps some. Your typical residential window cleaners may find that they can easily add Pressure Cleaning to their service base thus cutting out some residential work for Power Washing Contractors. Not much grant it, but some
<li>Now for the Commercial guys it could have a lot of impact. The window cleaners that will be at this seminar will be ones that have A) had some success & are primarily commercial B) are in the infant stages of their biz & probably have the financial position to diversify their market & C) are local to say some 200 miles of the seminar & are perhaps not really successful in window cleaning, thus a diversified market may offer them a very attractive picture. </I>
<br>
<p>What does this mean to us. Well, the window cleaning business is based largely on volume. They have to clean a lot of windows to make a buck. By being volume they have many commercial customers. What do you suppose the result will be of these guys being further introduced to our industry? I say further because after doing some research I found that
the ICWA boast approximately 650 members <I>probably twice the size of PWNA, maybe three times</I> Of those 650 members 290 list Pressure Cleaning <a href="http://www.iwca.org/search/search.htm" Target="_blank">, <i>go here & type "PRESSURE" in the search box</i></a>, as an additional service that they offer. The current markets & market position of these 290 is unknown to me, however I would bet the majority are more engaged in window cleaning than pressure cleaning. Anyway, that’s already 290 of the IWCA members that are positioned to have an adverse effect on your business from information that they acquire at the upcoming trade show!

<p>Everybody that has ever been to a trade seminar will attest to the fact that when you leave one you tend to be a little hyped up to go out and sell some jobs. Often you’re hyped to perhaps pursue a new market. How do you think the window guys will react? They are going to have access to all of the same pressure cleaning hype as the Pressure Cleaning Contractors that will be there. They will be seeing dollar signs galore. Most will already have a vast commercial client base. Commercial clients would prefer to do business with as few contractors as possible. Thus the window cleaners will gain a slight edge on many pressure cleaners. Now of course you could go learn to be a window cleaner also, but do you really want to? Window cleaning is a VOLUME lowball business. IF one customer decides to cut you because you don’t do windows too are you going to say “OK, I can do your windows too” you could say that & you could do it, but what do you suppose your profit will be versus the hassle to do it. You or an employee will have to go our weekly, bi-weekly or whatever & clean windows on a business for $10-$30 bucks. The time it takes you to make that money you could make $60-$100 pressure cleaning.

<p>Now, for the PWNA as an organization this is a good thing. By introducing us to them it furthers the awareness of the PWNA to others thus having the potential to increase the PWNA’s membership base. For the people that get paid to
run the PWNA this good, for vendors within the PWNA this is also good. It gives them further reach of marketing. <I>You think vendors aren’t all for this, they’re probably more interested in the ICWA than the PWNA members. The sales to the ICWA members probably have more potential be complete packages, trailer packages etc. Vendors will love
that! I’m not knocking the vendors here, if I was a vendor I would be all for it too!</I>

<p><b><font size=+1>WHY are they doing it?</font></b> Well my guess would be they are doing it for a few reasons.
<li> #1 Reason would probably be because the PWNA executive director Jack Pitzer is also the executive director for the IWCA. How convienient eh. By grouping our two organizations together he’s effectivenly killing 2 birds with one stone! He either doesn’t realize the ramifications of this act on “our” businesses or he doesn’t care!

<p>So as you can see, this is good for.

<li>PWNA/ICWA Executive Director because it makes his job a lot easier only having to plan one convention for both of “his” organizations

<li>The Vendors – This will add new perspective customers to their database.

<li>The ICWA – It will offer them intensive access to information & materials to “EXPAND” upon their current business into another industry sector, which they are already “positioned” for which with probably 90% of them will offer them higher yield on labor & overhead!

<p> For the Power Washing contractor however, which is what the PWNA is really supposed to be for, this is nothing that can help us ~v~ the “potential” harm that it could do to us. If it cost ONE Power Washing Contractor one contract it’s too high a price, and rest assured it will. If you are thinking “Well, Cody, maybe I’d like to do windows” well I can help you there. You can learn all you want by just going to your local janitorial store. There they will have all the latest in Hi-Tech squeegee’s & super duty mop buckets & those places usually have at least one field sales rep who works on commission so they will be more than happy to assist you in the proper techniques on cleaning for a streak free window.

<p>In addition to all the above consider what he ICWA will bring to the table for this event & of that what applies to you. Squeegees & Mop buckets! Yeah, they will probably have all sorts working at heights stuff, buckets trailers/trucks, gangs, perhaps some window tinting / window armor & such, but of all of that what do you think you will be able to add to you current business? A Squeegee & a mop bucket, if you want to get hi-tech add a brush & a 2nd mop bucket, that’d be the equivalent of adding a surface cleaner & a hotbox to a PW rig!

<p>To further add to my own personal dismay I found the following paragraph on the PWNA web-site. I underlined the bit
I have trouble with.
<br>
<hr color=e87400>
<br>
<i>The primary goal of the organization is to advance the interests and concerns of its members. The PWNA promotes a highly professional, responsible image of the <u>window cleaning professional</u>. The PWNA, through its various programs, helps its members to develop that image.</i>
<br>
<br>
<hr color=e87400>

<p>On that page that is the first reference of who the PWNA is for. It may be a typo but it lets you know what someone is thinking. Go read it for yourself at the <a href="http://www.pwna.org/membership/membership.htm" Target="_Blank">membership webpage</a> It’s the 2nd paragraph down.

</br>

<p>Is the PWNA for POWERWASHERS or is it now turning into a something else. With our current Executive Director being the Executive Director of the ICWA as well perhaps the PWNA is being steered into a direction that is not the best for it’s “CONTRACTOR” members. Where is this going to end up. Will this turn into a General Cleaning Association &/or will future seminars be hosted Jointly too</I> That’s going to go over real well. Lets just go an get everyone into it then. Window Cleaners, Janitors, Sweepers, Carpet Cleaners, Land Scapers, Floor Cleaners the works. Nothing like starting an organization for Pressure Cleaners to further Power Washing Contractors business advancements than to introduce our industry to all the people that can compete in it as well or better than we can. Janitorial companies could put us in a hurt locker as well as Sweeping companies. Like I had said previously about window cleaners. They are already positioned with the customer base & customers prefer to deal with fewer contractors as a general rule.


<p>Anyone that finds this alarming please take a stance. I am not a member of the PWNA but their actions are affecting me. They are affecting you too. If you are a CONTRACTOR and feel this is threatening or a perversion of “our” industry then take a stance. If you are a Member of the PWNA shout out about it. If enough members take a stance against this there may be a chance of thwarting it before it's too late. There is probably little chance of stopping this convention, the ball is already in motion & commitments have already been made. Any PWNA Members seeing this even remotely as I do, as not a good thing, should really take a stand-off position towards it. Tell the PWNA that you will not attend this seminar if it remains as it is. If the commitment is in concrete perhaps the convention could still be simultaneous however split apart, PWNA this way, ICWA that way. At the very least this can be stopped from ever happening again.

<p>Remember this is ALL ABOUT CONTRACTORS. PWNA is an organization that WAS FORMED FOR POWERWASHING CONTRACTORS. Not for Vendors, not for manufactures & definitely not for window cleaners. Hence the name PWNA – <font size=+2>POWER WASHERS</font> of NORTH AMERICA

<hr color=e87400>

<p>Now, with all that said, whats your opinion? I just can't get past this joint convention being a bad decision. I've been rolling it around in my head now for nearly a week since I first became aware of it taking place. It just seems dumb. Think about it some. PWNA sports 320 members ~v~ the IWCA's 650. That's more than double. That's offering "our" industry / knowledge / practices / methods to a boat load of people!

<p>So think I have blown this all out of proportion or think it's right on track!

<p>I killed some of this post. I had had it set with email links to all of the PWNA board members so that anyone that thought the Joint Convention idea was bad could respond such to them in one pop. Then I considered this was perhaps overkill. If this post gets some activity leaning towards the direction of the of Joint Conv = Bad. Then I will submit another regarding petitioning it.

Thanks For Reading
Cody.

PS Those of you who go to other boards, how bout linking this to them to get additional feedback on it. <i>Once again,, TOO many boards </i>


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-03
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Shadow
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Cody,

You do know that they are run by the same management company. This will make it easier for them to have one meeting in one place. It will introduce the two trades to each other and may cause people to pursue more than one market and increase membership for them on both sides.

Dan,
What can the PWNA do for you? Good question, as I have been trying to figure that one out too. They want us to sign up and then market them to our customers saying that we are members and we are better. Anyone can buy a membership good or bad, so what does that help us?
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Old 07-10-03
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Shadow
Default Re: Contractors / PWNA / IWCA

[quote]Originally posted by Cody
[b]<font color=e87400>
<p><p>Remember this is ALL ABOUT CONTRACTORS. PWNA is an organization that WAS FORMED FOR POWERWASHING CONTRACTORS. Not for Vendors, not for manufactures & definitely not for window cleaners. Hence the name PWNA – <font size=+2>POWER WASHERS</font> of NORTH AMERICA

<hr color=e87400>

Cody,
What makes you believe it was made for us, and not for some money hungry people that get all the membership dues? If it is for us, why do they not advertise more and promote themselves, instead of wanting us to sign up and do it?
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Old 07-10-03
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timhays
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i say **** em,let em do what they want,i left the painting business because of cutthroats and i will leave this one when the market becomes saturated as well.
i am finding it hard to get commercial accounts now because companies are coming in and doing the windows,pressure washing,cleaning carts,and welding them up replacing all damaged parts,wheels,plastic handle covers at one time,how the fu** can you compete or want to compete with that.

Last edited by Mark; 07-10-03 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 07-10-03
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Cody,
You and I have complete different takes on this which doesn't make mine right and yours wrong and vise-a-versa.

I look at this as a neat Idea to at least give it a try to see how a joint convention can do. Nothing wrong with that for it has been done with other organizations I'm sure.

Its all about NETWORKING just like these bb's. I'm sure the PWNA won't make it a habit to have joint conventions every year but it will be interesting to see how this one pans out. I believe it is in Dallas next year and I am going to try to attend since I do Powerwashing and a little bit of Commercial Window Cleaning.

I do belong to the PWNA and I've always been a supporter of Organizations and Unions. Strength is and always will be in NUMBERS and Organizations/Unions are just that.

The lone guy in the end takes a beating because he is.....the Lone guy. No strength there.

I could go on but I've read your posts over the years and your mind is made up so I would be talking to a wall.

I will add that your posts are most of the time a very good read and very thought out. You come across as one who is pretty dam smart. With that being said its to bad that you don't support and Organization that is willing to support you.


John Tornabene
Clean County Powerwashing
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Old 07-10-03
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AMEN DAN!
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Old 07-11-03
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Doc Reisman
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Us vs. them the continued battle for the domination of the pressure cleaning industry. PWNA the nefarious ruler looking to create a negative environment for all.

I am not sure how many people actually believe this propaganda but it could not be further from the truth. I would love to sell everyone on the idea that PWNA & IWCA convention is the best thing since sliced bread but I would prefer to talk on the phone.

847-625-6300 ext 131 7am-5pm
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In the history of PWNA we have never had a show this big with so much to offer our membership. Imagine, we have the strength of another organization to help pick up the bill. Conventions, speakers, and coordinating are not cheap or easy. This is no different then paying for couch and being put into first class for no additional cost

Do you think it is really the intention of IWCA members to steal our local business?
How much does it cost to start window cleaning compared to pressure cleaning?

I have no problem with criticizing PWNA because we can always use improvement. Let us work together constructively towards progress. One of the reasons we started our own business is for control and your membership to PWNA also gives you a stake of control. My door is always open and I am willing to listen to any suggestions; exercise your right.


Doc Reisman

President
Power Washers of North America
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Old 07-11-03
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One of the reasons we started our own business is for control and your membership to PWNA also gives you a stake of control.

I think our government is doing a great job in controling our environment,it's our tax dallors at work.All I see is the pwna wanting as you say control of the pwoerwashing trade.Like Dan said the rich will get richer and I'll add the poor will get poorer.

Organizations/Unions have put alot of people out of work and some Organizations/Unions have put alot of people to work.Usually a Organization isn't good for the little man,its another way of pushing him farther out of business as in controling him.

I have nothing againest the pwna and what they stand for(control),everybody has a choice as to whether or not to help control others.Who knows what the outcome will be in the next 10,20,30,40 years from now,will the added cost to the powerwashing trade be worth it to the customer,they already complain about the high prices.

One Organization is trying to take your guns away from you and doing a pretty good job of it and if they prove fish have feelings in their lips Zebco may as will shut their doors.

Some Organizations are good some are bad,depends on which side of the fence your standing on as to either.


When In Doubt Think It Out
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Old 07-11-03
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Doc Reisman
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PWNA controls only what its membership allow it to control and if we look closely at the members it is made up of small companies. We are not the government nor do we have an endless line of money to draw from. All of our board and non-board (committee members) work countless hours for free to better PWNA and the industry.

I believe Clean County summed it up by stating we are stronger together then as individuals.

We are always looking for ways to improve PWNA and the industry. Comments and suggestions are continually encouraged. As I see many of you are passionate about our industry. I also feel that same passion.

Many of us are cut from the same cloth; we are not willing to sit on the sidelines silently and we like to get our hands dirty. I am asking if you are sincerely wanting the industry to improve lets work together.

I have posted my phone number and I always return my messages.


Doc Reisman

President
Power Washers of North America
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Old 07-11-03
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Get involved HOW . send in $$$?

most of us dont want to spend the "georges" to watch some group make the rules and this is how we do things ... But how can we get involved without spending ? What is the PWNA doing with the money from the dues already ? What is done when we as a contractor need help on legal stuff? What about Ins.? What about buying power? What about ........ and the list can go and go ..

How much Money lays in the treasure? What is it being saved for? How much does the "main dude" make ? Cruise's that the members have to pay for anyways?????

What can the PWNA do FOR our business besides a "label" ???

No really what do we really get by being a member ?

and WHy cant anybody answer these Questions???????????



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