Chlorine -vs- Sodium Hydrox

Wondering if some of the pros could answer this one for me - I have used sodium hydroxide on four roofs this last fall with excellent results, but had to get up on the roof to clean it all off. I have not yet tried the chlorine but can it be applied and rinsed without having to get up on the roof with as good results? Any help would be appreciated! Thanks and Happy New Year!

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AranServices

New Member
Sodium Hydroxide? I HOPE you mean Sodium Hypoclorite which is a 12.5% bleach solution.

SODIUM HODROXIDE Desolves petroleum based materials & oil based by-products! It also desolves many metals.

Now, as for sodium hypoclorite it has a short life span. Especially if you leave it in the heat and sun. I have about 8 gal.'s here that (?)might work for laundry bleach if I am lucky!

Just thought I would point that out to you!

Good Luck & be careful!

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Cleaning America - One Job At A Time!
Once this shell of a body is vacated, may the Great God above know that I have tried to do better than I did the day before!

E-MAIL: aran@bellsouth.net
OUR WEBSITES ARE:
 
G

Glenn

Guest
I too use the Sodium hydroxide. At dilluted rates it is no more harmfull than the pool bleach. Don't believe me......pour some of that pool bleach on some exposed metal and see what happens. I have had great success with the caustic and will continue to use it untill I find a more economical and better chemical.
To answer your question, I have not had a roof yet that I didn't have to rinse off. I have heard claims of spraying chlorox on them and letting the rain wash the mildew off, but I don't believe it. There is no chemical you can simply spray on from the ground and will clean it like I expect it to be cleaned. You have to use some pressure to completely remove the stains. Sounds like what your doing is right on time. Don't get me wrong.....the pool bleach will clean the roof too just as good as the sodium hydroxide, but it too will have to be rinsed with the same amount of pressure to remove it. I use caustic because it is cheaper and has a longer shelf life.
Glenn

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"Hmmm, If everyone has a photographic memory... mine must be out of film."
 
Thanks for your input guys! Much appreciated! One more question for Glenn: just curious, do you stand on the roof to rinse or do you use extensions/attachments of some sort. The reason I ask is that on a high pitch roof, I don't know how anyone can stand on it. Even on a lesser pitch, the cleaners make it too slippery to do safely - almost found that out the hard way! Your experience would be most helpful! Thanks, Tim

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David T

New Member
I have had pretty good luck with 15%bleach mix with something like purple stuff .I mix it at 10 to1 and I can rinse of the mildew with a soap tip. This works for as long as you wet the plants down first.
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David T.
Chem-Clean
 
G

Glenn

Guest
Tim,
I soap the roof down not walking on the soap. In other words walk across the roof soaping the sections behing you. Then walk back across rinsing while walking in the rinsed area. This way you never walk in the soap. As for steep pitched roofs, stay away from them untill you find a solution. Some repell, others do different things.
Glenn

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"Hmmm, If everyone has a photographic memory... mine must be out of film."
 

AranServices

New Member
Let clear up a few facts:
Sodium Hydroxide is what I use to DEGREASE exhaust systems and shop floors. Put an asphalt tile into it and see see what's left after a few days. You want to put this on a roof?

Sure most chemicals do become inactive quickly, however, they do STILL breakdown the surface material. I want to do my customer the way I would want it done.
You need to know that Sodium Hydroxide is a VERY EFFECTIVE degreaser & most roofing is oil based.

To me it's like putting a few tablespoons of bleach into colored wash. That too is not very noticeable!

It is your choice - your insurance - your call!

What do I know? I just pull on my hose all night!
(and sometimes all day if I have enough energy)

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Cleaning America - One Job At A Time!
Once this shell of a body is vacated, may the Great God above know that I have tried to do better than I did the day before!

E-MAIL: aran@bellsouth.net
OUR WEBSITES ARE:
 

Ron Musgraves

Administrator
Staff member
Boy oh boy, starting to sound like a broken record. I agree with Mr. Aran. As every one knows I have step on many toes about caustics. Before we get into this again I just want everyone to know I use caustics rarely. Its cheap it work great but has many dangerous side affects if not used properly. I would say on a roof it would be a nightmare on an asphalt-shingled roof since the msds say it will destroy it. Yes read the msds sheets folks and you will learn a lot about the chemicals you are using. There is a time and place to use caustics. I cannot say using them on a roof is bad with out knowing the composites in the roof and the ph level in the soil around the job. But at my first guess this would be bad. It will clean wonderfully and the customer will probably be grateful for the job you did. The thing he wont know is that you have taken life of his roof. Manufactures put chemicals such as uv protect ants that will be striped off with caustics. This is the only thing I disagree with aran. It will not take a couple of days only a few minutes to destroy the tile. As he said there will probably be no tile in two days.

Hey I don’t post these controversial things to get my rocks off or to prove any one wrong. I really want people to be safe and not damage other people’s property.

Caustics don’t neutralize with water. As a matter of fact not fiction they will reactivate every time you put water on them. Since caustics are very stick they will remain on the roof unless you are rinsing with something that will neutralize the caustics. If you believe what I’m telling you, this would mean every time the roof gets wet it would start eating the roof. Once the caustic dries it appears to be ok, that’s the problem this damage may not even occur for weeks months years after your long gone. Mean while your customer thinks he got a wonderful roof cleaning. When his roof leaks maybe not the first second or third time it rains but maybe the fourth he will not put the too together. Lucky for you most in the pressure washing industry and in the chemical business condone the use of caustics on many application. I just can’t do that with the standards and the foundation that I have built over the last 17 yrs.


One more thing has any one killed plants using caustics around buildings. Now don’t tell me they use caustics to feed plants in your area. Of course they might, some of our farmers could help explain the pros and cons using caustics in different areas of the country. I was lead to believe we have farmers that pressure wash on this board. If your corn fused call a co-op and ask what them might fertilize the ground in you r area and you might get the question answer. Or a large horticulture firm that deals with soil. I can’t give you advice on this if you live outside my 10-mile radius because everyone’s soil is different. The minimum you should know about your soil is if has a low or a high ph?????? Do you know why you need to know this?



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Ron Marshal Phoenix AZ
1-888-fleetwash
 

David Saulque

<b>PWN TEAM - Hood Moderator</b><br<b><font color=
To back Ron up-in servicing hood system one just does not rinse with just water. You must neutralize the caustic with citrus acid or vinegar. For example-if one let the caustic water and grease flow onto the floor and into the drain and a simple mop out and out the door you go. You will get a call back the next day asking what the salt like product is on the floor. Plus it is a bear to get up. We mop down with Citrus Acid, plus run the it threw the downline and the hose.

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G

Glenn

Guest
To All:
I have as I said been using Sodium Hydroxide to clean roofs with great success. I replied on this topic to share my knowledge and hopefully help others in this profession. During this exchange on info., I was informed by more than one of you that what I was doing was harmful to my customers property, mainly the roof. This disturbed me greatly. I would never do anything to another persons property I thought was harmful, not to them, their property, pets, or me. So, in the past few days I have done extensive research on Sodium Hydroxide. I have found out, 1: Sodium hydroxide is used in a lot of different cleaning chems., and 2: It is the active ingredient in more than one major chemical suppliers roof and deck cleaner. Yes, Sodium Hydroxide is corrosive and dangerous and so are a heck of a lot of other chems. in concentration. Think about it, Household bleach 3-5%, Household peroxide 2-4%. Imagine what these would do in higher concentrations?
Perhaps, you guys are confusing Sodium Hydroxide based cleaners with Solvent based ones. Solvent based cleaners would possibly damage petroleum products such as asphalt roofing.
In conclusion, I would like you to forward me any documents or other substantial info. you have that suggests what you are alleging. I am sure the distributors and suppliers of these major, well known roof cleaning chemicals would be just as interested in it as I am.
I am not trying to blast anybody on here and I hope that is not perceived. I am a professional in this field and would not advise anybody in the use of any chems. that I had no experience with, especially if I knew them to be harmful in the application they were suggesting.
Bottom line is we are all here to learn and differing opinions on these matters result in research and understanding. I hope some have benefited from my posts in the past as well as those in the future.
Glenn

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"Hmmm, If everyone has a photographic memory... mine must be out of film."
 

Dan Flynn

PWN Founder
Great Post Glenn,

That is exactly the purpose of the board. There really should be no reason for anyone to get offended by someone's opinion. We should exchange ideas and thoughts, making sure we are expressing them professionally.

Then as you stated try to research and back up our views. If and when someone who counters the way we do something is right and can back it up. We all should be grateful for the learning experience, not frustrated because we made a mistake or we're doing something wrong.

The botton line is we all do the best we can do with the knowledge we have. We will prosper if we except the fact when we are wrong, and learn from those who knew better.

I too use Sodium Hydroxide to clean roofs and see no visible damage. For example I have used my gutter cleaner on a trailer home before and it came out great. But some of the chemical got on the flat roof and the next day the lady called and said that there are black stains all over. When I got there I could not believe my eye's. Obviously this chemical was eating away the tar roof from the over spray. I re-cleaned the trailer and the problem never returned. I would think that I would see a similar situation with asphalt, but do not. I feel based on my own experiences and research, that it's the safest way to go with asphalt.


Great Topic.

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Dan Flynn
Timberland Power Wash www.powerwash.net
Houston, Texas.
 

Larry L.

PWN TEAM - Moderator Emeritus
<FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT COLOR="MediumBlue">Glenn I agree with Dan,,,</FONT c></FONT f><FONT COLOR="Red">Great post.</FONT c><FONT COLOR="Blue">Shows you mean bussiness to go to the trouble to find out.</FONT c><FONT COLOR="Red">I agree your a proffessional.</FONT c>

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When answering Post If It Sounds As tho I'm Holding A Match To Ya "Fear Not" Its Only Lit On One End.I'm No Doctor The Pill I Subscride Is For Me Only.They May Make You Jump Up and Down Or Crawl All Over The Ground.Will Try To Help Sail Your Ship Even Tho Rocket Fuel Is The Tip.
When In Doubt,,,Think It Out.....triplel@bscn.com
 
Glenn,

I, too, would personaly like to thank you for your candid insights not only into my original question that started this whole thing off, but also for the mere fact that you are willing to share your knowledge so that we may all benefit in some way.

Indeed, I too did my homework on sodium hydroxide before applying it to my roof, my father-in-law's roof as well as to my first two customers. My research revealed the same things you found - that many chems sold in this industry for roof and deck cleaning contained sodium hydroxide.

Further, having read seemingly thousands of posts about roof cleaning on numerous bulletin boards, web pages etc.. I have yet to find anyone who has mentioned a roof failure or damage caused by the use of these products. I would certainly hope that if anyone has ever had a problem with it cleaning roofs, they would let us all know so that we may all be cautioned and bring the safety of the products up to the fore front for discussion. This is what drives the learning process and most of all helps to protect our livelihoods - our customers.

Debate is always a good thing. It is what helps us stupid humans come up with better ideas (like brainstorming) in turn allowing us to make better, more informed decisions.

As a newcomer to this industry, this is what is most important to me so that I may build a respectful, profitable business by offering services that I can back-up and believe in.

Thanks again, and I hope to have more good discussions with all of you in the future!
If you always do what youv'e always done, you will always get what you always got!

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David Saulque

<b>PWN TEAM - Hood Moderator</b><br<b><font color=
My knowledge of residential roof cleaning is Zero and I wish to keep it that way. Many package industrial cleaner have as an limited ingredient of Sodium Hydroxide, the key is the word limited. I buy this product by the pallet and it is my pick to clean hood systems. Just read the MDS and it will tell how dangerous this product is if used at full stroke. I would not mix on site any product that would have major liability. I would use a tested product and have a blender produce the product.

I think the point should be made that this product should be used with caution. This product used by limited knowledge persons is asking for major problems for the worker and the customer.

David

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AranServices

New Member
I have got to give you two thumbs up Glen!
However, having seen the path of least resistance in a lot of people. It still needs to be know that this IS the main chemical that I use to degrease restaurtant exhaust hood systems & my mix is about 8 parts additive to 1 parts Sodium Hydroxide! I can personally show you (I saved it) an airless spray gun (the trgger handle) that was at least 40% dissolved after having been left in this stuff over a weekend.
Now, with that in mind, it is STILL my contention that this is not the right chemical to use. Of course I am not as schooled as a chemist who could develope a well tested solution.

Belladonna was used in medicine!
I won't try that either!

The bottom line is that it is a matter of opinion - however, people need to be careful & aware of the fact that this stuff is not Windex, Fantastic, or 409 and MUST be treated as a highly corrosive chemical. It is not a soap!

USER BEWARE!

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Cleaning America - One Job At A Time!
Once this shell of a body is vacated, may the Great God above know that I have tried to do better than I did the day before!

E-MAIL: aran@bellsouth.net
OUR WEBSITES ARE:
 

Ron Musgraves

Administrator
Staff member
Caustics 101

When reading please notes that caustic is referred to as bases. The reason is they are at the base of the pH scale. Acids are at the other side, I will post a scale later when I find it. This is not Bs. these is real and if you don’t take it serious one day you will get hurt or hurt someone else and maybe not even know. These facts which I rarely see posted anywhere else on this board. I think that not taking our word is great. But should we be the one finding the information for you. Well, they come from and encyclopedia. you can read more and more about these chemicals. I can’t find and msds sheet anywhere online. I will produce one that says concrete cleaner caustic warning will destroy seal coated surfaces {asphalt}. If you happen to drop by autozone and pick up a bottle of their concrete cleaner you would find that it says those exact words. Remember this is concrete cleaner. Can we use it on concrete? Yes, should we get any on asphalt? No. Why do they sell it to us as concrete and asphalt cleaner. Because its cheap cheap cheap, does it work well yes yes yes yes yes yes, do I use it yes yes yes yes yes. Would I use it on a roof? wellllllllllllllllllll no. Would a roofing contractor? Ask them. this stuff is in more products around your house than you realize. David said the key word control of the products. With any product you use you need control. my argument on a home owner roof its very hard to control. Even if you where using a solution that was not hot. hot meaning stronger. There are better chemicals to use. They are not as cheap. They are certainly not solvents. Solvents might take you straight to jail if you didn’t burn the house down and die first. Solvents are very flammable. That will be in solvents 102. Again I’m not here to tell you to use or not to use a certain chemical. I’m sure that many contractors through out the world use caustics on roofs. Does this mean they are right? No. I like aran have personal testimony. I also have many photo’s of asphalt and roofs that where damaged by other cleaners. I have also been involved in insurance company’s collecting from those contractors that destroyed the roofs. They love to clean foam roofs here in Arizona with caustics. As far as chemical manufactures telling you its safe. I’m sure they will I have no doubt in my mind. Responsible ones will not. Caustic is a base at witch many cleaning compounds derive from. Depending on what strength you mix it will determine the reaction. Water air and base will combine and make it a certain degree of cleaning. Can you control it? Yes. Does it rinse away easy? No. It says it’s sticky and slippery. Will the pH level change when you mix it? Yes.


Acids and Bases, two classes of chemical compounds that display generally opposite characteristics. Acids taste sour, turn litmus (a pink dye derived from lichens) red, and often react with some metals to produce hydrogen gas. Bases taste bitter, turn litmus blue, and feel slippery. When aqueous (water) solutions of an acid and a base are combined, a neutralization reaction occurs. This reaction is characteristically very rapid and generally produces water and a salt. For example, sulfuric acid and sodium hydroxide, NaOH, yield water and sodium sulfate:

H2SO4 + 2NaOH⇄2H2O + Na2SO4
Remember when we talk about neutralizing the caustic. Acid being the opposite end of the spectrum would do the trick. Wow !!!!this means you can neutralize caustic with acid. That means you would have perfect water number 7 pH.


Caustic Chemicals, chemicals that can destroy or severely damage the flesh on contact. Such chemicals include various inorganic and organic acids and bases. The most familiar chemicals called caustics are sodium hydroxide (caustic soda, or lye) and potassium hydroxide (caustic potash). Other chemicals are also caustics, for example, silver nitrate, which has been used as an antibacterial agent and for treating warts.

severely damage flesh-wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Alkalies (Arabic al-qili,â€ashes of the saltwort plantâ€), originally the hydroxides and carbonates of potassium and sodium, leached from plant ashes. The term now applies to the corresponding compounds of ammonium, NH4, and the other alkali metals and to the hydroxides of calcium, strontium, and barium. All of these substances produce hydroxide ions, OH-, when dissolved in water. The carbonates and ammonium hydroxide give only moderate concentrations of hydroxide ions and are termed mild alkalies. The hydroxides of sodium and potassium, however, produce hydroxide ions in high enough concentration to destroy flesh; for this reason they are called caustic alkalies. Solutions of alkalies turn red litmus blue, react with and neutralize acids, feel slippery, and are electrical conductors.
Caustic soda, or sodium hydroxide, NaOH, is an important commercial product, used in making soap, rayon, and cellophane; in processing paper pulp; in petroleum refining; and in the manufacture of many other chemical products. Caustic soda is manufactured principally by electrolysis of a common salt solution, with chlorine and hydrogen as important by-products.
Sodium carbonate, Na2CO3, one of the mild alkalies, is manufactured from natural deposits or made from common salt brines by the Solvay process (see Soda). It is used in the manufacture of glass and as a cleaning agent and water softener.

Sodium carbonate is used in the manufacture of glass and ceramics, in the pulping of wood to make paper, and in the manufacture of soap.<FONT COLOR="Red"><FONT size="6">Text[/).]size] It is also used in petroleum refining, as a water softener, as a cleaner and degreaser in washing compounds, and in the manufacture of other sodium-containing compounds, such as sodium hydroxide.
Text</FONT c>Text</FONT s><FONT size="5">Text</FONT s>

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Ron Marshal Phoenix AZ
1-888-fleetwash

[This message has been edited by Ron Marshal (edited January 04, 2001Text[/).]size]

[This message has been edited by Ron Marshal (edited January 04, 2001).]
 

Dan Flynn

PWN Founder
You guys are very right there. The question of the, seriousness of that product is a hole other topic all together. Ten percent will burn the skin. If you get it on you or anything for that matter at to high of a percentage you will have serious trouble. I would recommend to anyone who uses this product to use a premix solution you by from a chemical supplier shop. Watch out for the lungs.

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Dan Flynn
Timberland Power Wash www.powerwash.net
Houston, Texas.
 

Larry L.

PWN TEAM - Moderator Emeritus
<FONT COLOR="Blue">Chemical Family::inorganic base</FONT c>
<FONT COLOR="Blue">Caustic Soda;;;Liguid Caustic soda;;;Caustic soda Solution;;;Sodium Hydroxide;;;Sodium Hydroxide solution;;;Lye Solution;;soda Lye;;;Liquid Alkali #4;;</FONT c>
<FONT COLOR="Red">Health-3</FONT c>
<FONT COLOR="Fuchsia">Will I'm going to laugh again
hapfac01.gif
hapfac01.gif
and you get on to me for using acid
hapfac01.gif
hapfac01.gif
.The what ever you want to call it is one of the ingratitudes I use to make degreaser with.</FONT c><FONT COLOR="Blue">I'm glad you guys are warning about the danger of this chemical (as MOST chemical R rattlesnakes).Glenn keep up the good work man and you mite amount to something one of these days,becuase you know rubber will burn also if'en you hold the match to close
blackeye.gif
eek.gif
.</FONT c>


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When answering Post If It Sounds As tho I'm Holding A Match To Ya "Fear Not" Its Only Lit On One End.I'm No Doctor The Pill I Subscride Is For Me Only.They May Make You Jump Up and Down Or Crawl All Over The Ground.Will Try To Help Sail Your Ship Even Tho Rocket Fuel Is The Tip.
When In Doubt,,,Think It Out.....triplel@bscn.com
 

Mike Hughes

New Member
I don't do roofs........but, I do use Sodium Hydroxide on decks. Whenever it is applied to a deck, we always follow up with an acid to neutralize it.............why would a roof be any different? Any thoughts on that?


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Mike Hughes
Everclear
Souderton, PA
 

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