brick cleaning techniques

[Target P/W]

I have been doing some reading here regarding the proper cleaning of exterior brick sufaces.
I did not see a technique that would be used in cleaning it.
I assume we would pre-soak the area first then apply our chemical. I believe that I will use sure-clean 600...
Starting at the bottom of the house, we work across to the end of the wall, or straight upwards to the roof then back to the bottom for a second run?.
I ask because I worry about lap marks, etc.
Can someone share their cleaning technique please as I hope to gain additional jobs from this one.

Thank-you.
Chris.

 

[oguard]

Go to

http://www.canadabrick.com/homestead/tech_info.html

And click on the link for "Cleaning Procedures for New Brick" where they give you all kinds of information on how and what to do.

FYI, Canada Brick is one of the largest brick manufacturers in the world and as a manufacturer they should know what works best for their products.

Hope this helps? Cheers.

 

[the_GUNN_man]

There are many things to consider when washing brick. I used to be a bricklayer and that is how I got into pressure washing. I washed brick for the company I worked for.

I have had jobs with the same amount of brick last 5 times longer than another. The biggest part to washing brick is how clean are the bricklayers. If they are sloppy or have laid brick when it has been rainy then the brick will be smeared and harder to work with.

It also matters what type of mortar they use. There are two main types Type N and Type S. In most cases type N is used for brick and type S for block. Some architects though get a hair up their butt and demand that type S is used for the brick. The difference is type N has a compressive strength of 750 psi and type S has a compressive strength of 1800 psi. What this means is type S does not like to come off. I always make sure to ask what type of mortar they have used. If the say S then I get second thoughts about doing it.

The next thing is the type of brick. There is a huge difference in brick. Most brick for the most part or ok to clean. It is when you start getting into the sand faced brick that you have problems. The sandy surface actually gives it a different kind of color then the color underneath. If you use too much pressure then the sandy finish comes off and you are left with a different color. I had red brick turn orange-ish color on me. Just for the record it wasn't from the Sure Kleen because I didn't use any. I used straight water. The sooner you can get to brick after it has been laid the better. Well, you do need to give it a few days to cure before blasting it with pressure. Other brick soak up lots of water. We call these sponge brick. What is bad about them is that you wet down the wall you can't keep water on the surface. In order to get the sure kleen to work right it can't be allowed to soak into the brick it must stay on the surface. Sponge brick can really be difficult to work with. You need to be careful with the mortar joint especially around the corners of the building. It is easy to blow them out. Never focus your pressure right on the joint. Before you start to wash brick though you need to scrape the wall. You get one of those metal ice scrapers that has about a 8" blade on it. You need to get all the excess mortar left on the wall off, we call them boogers. Never try to just blast it off. Be careful using a metal scarper because it can leave marks on the wall. There is no need to use a ton of force. The next thing is to make sure you wet down EVERYTHING. Never allow the acid to dry onto anything. The acid in Sure Kleen can damage window frames, shingles, pretty much any kind of metal surface if it gets on that surface when it is dry. So wet down everything and keep it wet.

The next thing has been a debate among many people. To use acid or just water. I use both and to be honest I don't see much of a difference. I use it because the customer wants me to. Here is my theory (and only a theory). When the wall looks good and isn't smeared up the sure kleen works good. If the wall looks bad and needs a lot of pressure then the acid is useless. I know it sounds backwards but follow me. Take a deck for instance. What good would deck cleaner do if you were using 5000 psi 6" from the surface? I know the wood would break apart but brick is pretty tough. What I am getting at is the acid doesn't have a chance compared to the pressure. So if I used that much pressure on a deck it would be clean right? It would like crap but it would be clean and you wouldn't be able to tell if I used a cleaner or not. Sorry this is getting so long but I figure someone may want to hear the point of view of a bricklayer. I know brick companies tell you to use low pressure when washing brick. Like around 200- 300 psi and never go over 700 psi. You have to look at why they say this. What if they tell you to just blast at it with 5000 psi and you scar up the brick and cause a lot of damage? Then they look bad because they said it was ok. So they tell you to use low pressure. Some companies tell you never use any pressure and to wash it with a bucket and brush. That is not very realistic. They are just trying to release themselves from liability. If you bought tires and asked if they would be ok driving 200 mph would the manufacturer say yes? I bet they would say no just so they couldn't be held responsible for anything that may happen. Will the tires holdup? Maybe or maybe not. I am not saying it is ok to use high pressure. I have used both and it really comes down to whatever works for you. I have heard people using turbo nozzles on brick. I never had but would think it would cause damage. If it works for someone that is great. Maybe I should try it and see what happens but if you try anything like that test it on a discreet area first. Make sure that discreet area is a area that could be removed it did damage. So that means try it on some brick that isn't at the bottom of a wall where all the brick on top has to be ripped out to get to it. Testing a few brick under the window would be good because they would be easily popped out without tearing down a whole wall.

I do a lot of brick jobs and they make a lot of money. You can get $0.55 a sq. ft. for it. I have a job that is a little over 34,000 sq. ft. that is $19,000. Not bad for 2 guys for 2 weeks work. I do mostly all commercial jobs. They pay well. If you do commercial jobs don't forget to take into consideration the height. Lifts can be expensive. When figuring the price for materials make sure you figure in the sure kleen at the right price. It costs $47.95 for 5 gallons here. That should clean according to "them" 150 to 300 sq. ft. per gallon. So that is between $0.03 to $0.06 a sq. ft. Make sure you add that in. Nothing can be worse then thinking you have a good job and then finding out you need $1000+ in sure kleen. Hope this helps.

Steve

 

[Larry L.]

Welcome to the bbs the_GUNN_man.

I used to swing between the bars helping 2 bricklayers on weekends and they told me Monday they where useing a different type mortar now on some homes,said it was sorta cream or tan colored,not the dye type like they used to use.I was listen but wasn't paying a'tention,if you know anything about the new type they where talking about it would help here.I do not wash brick no'more but have cleaned alot of it with a brush and watering hose,no what I mean.

As you say some bricklayers are messy with their mortar,these guys where good,they would even brush the brick on their way up the wall,made washing them as you say easy when done 1 or 2 days after they had been layed........I've seen white brick turn mint green when to much acid was used on them,I laughed when I seen your orange lol.

o I never did like those sand faced'brick,makes me want to dig at my eye even now,get a eye full when laying..

 

[Dan Flynn]

Welcome Gunn Man,

Nice post, we look forward to hearing more from you.

Have a nice weekend

 

[Richard R.]

Hey Gunn man,
Welcome to the board.

I'm not sure I'm following you to well.
Hardly anything you've said seems to work to clean brick here in this area.
I suppose if your talking about washing the brick following the brick layers, it would make since. I didn't realize brick layers or companies would hire power washers to wash their brick after new construction. I always figured the brick layers cleaned it all themselves. I need to look into that.
I just finished a job recently and I don't think it's possible to clean with high pressure water, let alone, Just Water as you said.
Most of my calls recently have been on homes that were built 15 to 32 years ago and the efflorescence caused by the sprinkler system won't come off with plain water. Whats even worse was the sure kleen wouldn't take it off unless you washed with it about 3 or 4 times.
I finally had to mix my own mixture with half and half Muratic and water. I don't know if I would use that method on white brick, but I don't imagine I would get very many calls to wash whit off of white anyway.
I guess I havn't seen many homes that needed the brick power washed except those with the eflorescence, mold and mildew or dirt splash from rain and so forth.
Most of the other guys have seen these pics, but I thought maybe you could look at them and tell me how you would have cleaned this.
It wash long drawn out process before I finally figured out how. The sure kleen here didn't do a very good job, and besides, it's about $18.95 a gallon here. About $95.00 for 5 gallons. I couldn't make much if I had to pay that, but since it doesn't work as well as my mixture, I wouldn't use it much anyway.
It is my understanding that the hydroflouric acid in sure kleen is more damaging than the hydrochloric that makes up the muratic, but yet they say not to use the hydrochloric. What's up with that?
I set the picture quality a little low to get more pics on my card, but you can get an idea how it turned out.

Thanks
Richard R

 

[johnisimpson]

Rlchard,

I've read some of your other posts on bricks and muriatic and have a few questions about your method. I'm fairly new to p/wing and have used muriatic at times in the past for a few random uses but not enough to know much about the proper ways to use it. When using it in conjunction with p/w'ing, you say you mix it 50/50, then do you downstream? or use sprayer?

Also, how long is your dwell time, and when you rinse are you done? Does thorough rinsing completely remove it from the brick and dilute it enough to keep it from damaging anything else?
How much pressure do you typically use to rinse?

I've only done one job so far that involved brick. It was mainly a flat work job with 2 brick stair cases and it turns out that I seriously underbid those stairs. Live and learn I guess.
Around here, we run into a lot of ivy and other flora right below brick structures, so I'm also really curious what steps would need to be taken to make sure the muriatic would not seriously harm the vegetation. All I know to do would be to soak the vegetation first and continue to keep them wet and rinse well, but I'm still worried that the muriatic in the ground (even diluted) would cause harm to the plants. Any help in this would be greatly appreciated.

John

 

[Richard R.]

John,
I wish I could say I was an old hand at this but I'm not. I still have a lot to learn and I still have the same fears about using the acid as anyone else.
So far, either I've been blessed or very lucky that I haven't ran into the wrong brick.
The way I've been doing that has worked real well and simple is, I saturate the brick and the ground real well before I get started. If I know I'm going to be washing someones brick or use any kind of chemicals, I ask the customer if they will run their sprinkler system for about an hour or so during the morning hours before I arrive.
I mix the mixture in a pump up prayer and have my pressure gun laying and waiting to rinse.
It really doesn't have to be half and half, but as long as it's close and has more water than it has acid, it should be fine.
I use a medium hard nylon or plastic type bristle brush that has about a 1 to a 1 1/2 foot handle. Once I spray the acid, I immediately start brushing. You will notice the acid starting to neutralize as you scrub. Then I rinse real good. I have been known to spray and scrub without saturating the brick since I don't have a dwell time. I would only recommend you do this at your own risk. I suppose it may catch up with me some day doing it like that though.
I think the best way to get started is to start at a 5x5 ft area saturating the ground, applying the chemical, scrubbing it and rinsing the surface. As I'm waiting for my test spot to dry, I prepare the other surface to be cleaned. By the time I'm finished, preperation, the test spot is usually dry enough to see if I'm using the right mixture.
As for the pump up container, I use the type of sprayer that has a manuel air release valve on it from Home Depot. I drill a whole on the opposite side of the valve. I then use some bent barbeque tongs to insert a metal type tire pressure valve into the spray bottle and into the drilled out whole. This allows me to use my trailer mounted air tank to fill my sprayer until I can vaguely hear the air escaping from the air release valve. This seems to work real well and I don't have to continuously keep pumping my sprayer. I think Bigboy uses this same pump sprayer assembly for his hard chemicals.

Make sure to let me know if I need to clarify anything further.

Take Care
Richard R

 

[Larry L.]

John if you plan on useing muriatic acid on brick MAKE sure you soak the brick before appling as the mortar will draw it in the joints and all your wanting is to clean in outside of the brick not the insides.If you apply it dry it will soak up in the mortar joints which will later leak back out leaving little white spots,unless you rinse rinse rinse rinse rinse and you still want get it all rinse'd out if applied dry.If you'll soak the brick where it cann't soak up no'more water it'll take less chemicals to do the job and in makes it harder for the mortar joint to draw it in,the 50/50 mix is ok to use.Muriatic acid eats concrete,it'll also kill grass,weeds if strong mixed...I even used in in round'up once to get a quicker kill on the grass and weeds.Acids are ok to use if you use them wis'ly.

 

[the_GUNN_man]

Hey Richard,
I guess I should have been a little more clear on what type of work I do. I wash new masonry and do mostly commercial work. I would very rarely do houses. You are right most of the brick layers that do residential work wash behind themselves. How many brick are on a regular house? 5,000? I am not sure. The job I am doing now is a school. It has 244,000 brick on it. If you figure a masonry company is getting paid $2,000,000 to lay brick and block they don't want to haggle with washing the brick. They want their guys only laying brick. Around here they pay their brick layers around $25+ an hour. Besides they figure my price in with their bid and they pass it along so it isn't really like they are paying for it.
You talk about effloresence appearing on the brick from the sprinklers. I bet you that it is not effloresence. I think it is lime. Effloresence is salt. It is caused by water behind the brick trying to get out. Many things cause it. The first thing is when you get a new building all the rain that may have gotten trapped and the water in the masonry comes to the surface and evaporates leaving behind the salt and other impurities in the water. That is where you get the white powder. Most effloresence can be simply washed off with a garden house. The problem is it comes back. If it keeps coming back that means that water is getting behind the wall. Then whoever needs to look into the flashing that was installed to see if water is entering because of that. Cracks in the brick or the joints can cause water to leak in too. Also in areas where freezing is a problem can cause effloresence to happen too. Sometimes it can become a mystery to some. The sprinklers are probably leaving behind the hard water spots and that of course is lime. You get the same white junk in your shower and it is tough to get off a smooth surface let alone a porous one like brick. They brick manufacturer will tell you that if it is effloresence not to keep using acid on it.
As far as the price of sure kleen they sell it here for about $10 a gallon. I don't know why it is so high in your area? Where do you buy it? I buy mine right from the brick yard.
As far as cleaning brick with high pressure. That is up to the person washing it. I will not tell someone to use high pressure to wash it. All I can say is I have used it. It takes a really long time because you have to be so careful when you get near the joints. Since I laid brick for awhile I don't worry as much about hitting a joint because I can fix it really easy. Just get out a tuck pointer and your hubbard and it is fixed. I always carry mortar and sand with me to fix stuff like that.
Now as far as muratic vs. sure kleen goes I will always use sure kleen. I don't know where you got that sure kleen has hydroflouric acid. If you look on the side of the sure kleen it tells you to becareful because it contains hydrochloric acid. I just went out to make sure. Also the msds sheet tells you that it contains hydrochloric acid. So muratic and sure kleen both have it. I now muratic is nice because we can buy it for $3 a gallon. That beats $10 a gallon or as you say in your area $19 a gallon. I use sure kleen 600. They also have sure kleen 800 and vanatrol. Sure kleen is a toned down acid with a detergent added. Muratic has been known to burn brick. Besides when you work on commercial job sites for new buildings you have your general contractor overseeing the whole job. He is there to make sure everything goes like it is written out in the job description. I have to use what they tell me to. It is different washing brick on a $200,000 house comapered to a $20,000,000 school. I have been on jobs so big that they have 3 masonry companies working the same job. Then they call in 3 pressure washing companies to wash it. I think it is cool working with the other companies because it gives you a chance to exchange ideas.
When I said I can use plain water on jobs I was talking about new masonry. If the brick layers where clean it the way they laid the brick kyou can sometimes just wash with plain water but higher pressure. When masonry is first laid there is a haze to it. The brick looks dull. If it is good hard brick and it has set for awhile then you can sometimes use higher pressure.
The only thing I don't like about commercial work is in a couple of weeks I have to wash some brick that goes over 55 feet.
I would like to get into some residential work and get a couple more people working for me. What sucks about masonry jobs is that you can hit bad dry spells. Right now is spring so all the brick that was laid through the winter needs to be washed so I am busy. Not right now though because it raining too hard. It wouldn't be bad if I had to wash but I need to scrape today and that doesn't work well in the rain.
One more thing. Many people ask how I apply the acid. I use a down stream injector. I connect it at the end of my hose. The acid runs through my gun and that is it. I keep an old crappy gun for this job. Never run the acid through your pump or hose. I figure using my old guns are easier to replace then those chemical sprayers. They burn out too fast. Besides the chemical sprayers don't throw the acid far enough. I need to get it way up on the wall. Never use an x-jet for this. The problem with those is it can inject acid into the brick and the mist from that can make acid go all over. Just use an old gun and a old soap nozzle. If anyone else has ideas on what they use to apply the acid I would be interested in it.
I don't want anyone to think I know everything about washing brick because I don't. I am only trying to pass on my experiences on to others. I am still learning like everyone else. So I welcome all info I get from people about washing brick.
Well I guess I will wait for this rain to stop.

 

[Richard R.]

Thanks Gunn Man,

Before I say anything, let me just say that Muratic acid Is Hydrochoric Acid. If we will do a search on efflorescence either on this board or the internet, we will find what it is and what it's effects are, which is explained in more detail @ http://www.askbuild.com/cgi-bin/column?033
Lime is a white powder chiefly consisting of hydroxide of calcium. Most people think it's lime on the walls and in many cases could be, but from what I have learn from researching this, (unless I've misunderstood), efflorescence occurs because of the chemical reaction it has when water reacts to a surfaces like brick, concrete, mortar and or the backfill material behind the brick walls containing soluable salts.
The solution to this problem calls for the cautious application of hydrochloric acid.
Maybe I was mistaken on the name of the chemical I used with hydroflouric acid, but I'm almost sure it said Sure Klean, Sure Kleen or Sure Clean, LOL, eitherway, I believe it said hydroflouric acid. Regardless, I think this whole process of lime and efflorescence is the most misunderstood among the brick layers and many contractors alike. There are so many different versions and opinions depending on who you talk to. I think everyone one of them have a little bit of right and a little bit wrong mixed into their explanation.
I still believe it all falls back to the old saying, whatever works for one does not necessarily mean it works for all.
The one thing I truly believe in whole hardily is that somewhere along the line, this phenomenon started with consumer deception from some of the cleaner companies wanting to make an extra buck by confusing the consumer.
The one thing we can't deny is the facts. The cleaners on the market almost always have the same ingredients that the brick companies tell you not to use, that of course being muratic (hydrochloric) acid.
The facts are there for everyone to see, so I don't feel bad about making this conclusion. It's wide spread among other chemicals as well, such as those containing hypochlorite (bleach and chlorine) mixed with surfactants (active soaps).
I have been using hydrochloric acid since about 27 years with positive results, I will always try to encourage people to becareful with it, but will also encourage them to be careful about throwing their money away on these expensive cleaners. It all boils down to one thing. Do you want to make someone else rich that spends his time out on the golf course enjoying himself based on this confusion or do we want to experiment and make the same cleaner at a third of the price and reap the benefits for our own business which I might add, is based on honesty.
My method not only works, but is much quicker, easier and less expensive. This deception seems to be throughout the entire chemical market.
I learned this from some of the most respected business men in this industry, Richard Craig and Jr. Wood, not to exclude a list to long to mention.

Gunn Man I just want to say thanks for your help. It's easy to see that you are very concerned about teaching and helping others to succeed with the use of your time, efforts and professionalism. You fit real nicely here on this board with the multitude of great guys just like you.
Please understand that the deception I mentioned pertaining to the market is not at all my opinion of you are what you are trying to teach and maybe consumer deception is the wrong words to use in the first place.

Thanks Again
Richard R

 

[Clean County]

Richard and Gunn man,
Great post. A lively debate with alot of learning going on here.
I also clean brick once in awhile and its always a learning process. Its to bad you can't just take a surface cleaner and do house with it.

As far as brick patio's go I use my surface cleaner set at 200 degrees and never had a problem making them look like new except of course at times knocking out some sand between the bricks which can always be swept right back in.

As for house that is another story alltogether. No two brick houses seem to work out the same. A real pain in the *** but of course good money to be made here.

Both of you guys have great Idea's and I think I may give Gunn Mans idea of spraying these acidic chemicals thru the wand via chemical injector a shot.

As for Richards Idea of scrubbing if it works for him then great. I try to avoid scrubbing anything and have the pressure from the powerwasher handle that part of the cleaning process.

Its like Richard said in his post everybody has there own methods of doing things and there really isn't only ONE RIGHT or WRONG answer. This is why I love threads/post like this. Great work guys!!

 

[Clean County]

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