Behind the Times Magazine,,,,,,,,,,,,

Ron Musgraves · Feb 6, 2001

Behind the Times Magazine,

Guys & Shirley Iâ€™m not picking on cleaner time magazine because in 17 yr. they have never found me. I have never even seen a copy. I couldnâ€™t tell you if the articles are good. I like Scottâ€™s article but he e-mailed it to me. I will get a subscription to this magazine as soon as I can get enough time to fill out the paper work.

What I want to tell you today is that we are behind whether you want to realize this or not. In phoenix area last year they built over 50,000 homes. The average home was pressure washed at a price of $?.??. Totaling over $7,750,000 wow! wow! wow! wow! wow! wow! Just here in phoenix in one year. Thatâ€™s a lot of pressure washing for me to handle.

I will try to explain why we are off track. Contractors are afraid to use you. Some donâ€™t know pressure washing is even and option. Why you ask? Because in this case when you damage a brand new homes no one will turn there head and say thatâ€™s expectable. You will be replacing the concrete.

I had one of my employees steal this particular homebuilders account. He was very well trained and knew how to pressure wash these houses properly. The brother in law he hired and didnâ€™t train properly destroyed about seven driveways on the weekend about a month into his contract. Did they let him go, no they keep him working for one more month and then back charged the replacement of those jobs. When they terminated him he got a check for around $13.00 for about two months work.

Enclosed in my post are several photos of a procedure called disking. Also included are photos of pressure washing after a disking job was performed. Disking is simply taking a floor scrubber and putting a abrasive pad and attempting to clean the surface. I have talked with many old superintendents and disking has been the standard to clean the concrete on new construction since many of them can remember. I estimate that 90% of new homes in phoenix are being disked rather than pressure washed. This is not fact but my opinion so take it as just that. The next couple of things are not my opinion but fact. I will show you that pressure washing is superior to this old method of disking. Disking is not only bad for there concrete it doesnâ€™t clean it properly. Now you ask why are they still using it? We have not educated the masses. We have not shown the contacting world we are professionals. Some of you in your little worlds are happy and content with what you have. Some of us are looking at the larger picture. Thatâ€™s OK but I want you to understand that untrained workers will do more harms than good. $7,750,000 this number is correct because if the homes donâ€™t get pressure washed they get disked. Ten percent of the pie is $775,000 we donâ€™t get the other ninety- percent because we are simply not professional or we damage their surfaces. So the contractor says, lets disk its safe. It wonâ€™t give the best result but we never need to worry about replacing customerâ€™s concrete. I have heard this many many many many many many many many times in the last ten years. You say Ron educate your contractor. He does not know me and he usually has been burned and heard the pitch before from the last guy who screwed his concrete up. After all we are not talking about $200.00 or $2000.00 dollars a job. The average track runs about $25,000, SOME EVEN MORE. You canâ€™t convince a stranger that the last guy does not represent what you bring. Contractors above everyone else rely on standards. These guys have a codebook, when they have a problem they go to it.

So I have developed a video and still photo presentation to help aid in my convincing that pressure washing is better than disking. Well I donâ€™t need to convince any of them because they know it. Believe me they are all settling with the disking procedure because they do not run into companyâ€™s that could convince them other wise. I have had some success but this is my personal testimony that untrained unprofessional people have screwed up and entire market for everyone. I estimate 90% screwed up thatâ€™s 6,975,000 just in phoenix. Thatâ€™s a lot of pressure washing.

First photos show where the disking canâ€™t clean into corners.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1471816&a=11074799&p=40047962&Sequence=0&res=high

Second photo is the picture taken after disking company cleaned the garage.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1471816&a=11074799&p=40046636&Sequence=0&res=high

Third photo after we pressure washed the same corner. Check out the difference.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1471816&a=11074799&p=40042622&Sequence=0&res=high

Fourth photo represents the permanent damage disking can cause.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1471816&a=11074799&p=40047941&Sequence=0&res=high

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Ron Marshal Phoenix AZ
1-888-fleetwash

[This message has been edited by Ron Marshal (edited February 06, 2001).]

Clean County · Feb 6, 2001

Interesting. As far as the Cleaner Times magazine goes I think there great. If you like to read about powerwashing then they are the magazine to have. And also if you have something worthwhile to add to the magazine then there is a good chance if you submit it they will publish it. Just look at Scott's article which was very informative. This should be right up your alley Ron. -John-

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Cody · Feb 6, 2001

New COnstruction eh,,,,

Lately I have seen all these post on new construction and now I'm wondering what the big deal is on cleaning it. I can see how a Flat Surface cleaner could do some damage if under too much pressure on the exterior concrete. I would imagine though that it would'nt hurt anything on the garage floor. Anyway I never have really taken a "good" look at the concrete on new homes. Is it really that bad, could'nt it basically just be a hard rinse off and be done with it, or is more required.

I don't get it enlighten me please.

Thanks
Cody

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Hydro-Emulsification Surface Preparation Specialist

Scott Stone · Feb 6, 2001

I would not have been happy with any of the pictures, except, maybe, the last one. The reason I say that is it looked similar to what a concrete finishing machine does for a surface when it is done. The others looked as if the concrete was not in good shape even after it was poured. There is too much cracking. Of course, the texture and such is hard to see in a picture. I do agree with you, most builders co not want to use pressure washing companies because we on the whole have a terrible reputation. I think that this is because there are so many people in it that are in business this week and are getting out of the business next week because, surprise, it is actually work. In Phoenix it is worse. They start about this time of year and then about mid June they want out because it is too hot. A weather service 110 degrees can get to anyone after a while. They rethink their position again in about November and do the whole cycle over again.

What is needed is a new level of professionalism to be brought to our industry. It would be a long uphill battle, but, I think that it can be done. Until you get to the point where construction supers accept you as a professional, there is no way they are going to let you on their sites.
In Arizona, there is also no licensing procedure for pressure washing companies. That is another sticking point that keeps us out of the construction fray. Of course, I could be wrong. But this is the way that I see it.

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Any statement that I make about equipment, processes or your hair color is my own personal opinion. I usually base it on personal experience. If you disagree with me you are free to reply on both the BBS and by e-mail. If I am totally off base please explain why on the BBS so that we may all know why

Bus. Phone 480-834-3434
Cell Phone 602-509-9741

Ron Musgraves · Feb 7, 2001

Scott,

The heck with the rest of these guys how can we go about getting a local thing going to get a few of us certified. Get bumper stickers like the license contractors have. Launch an educational campaign to only use licensed people. Maybe start local and think about the big picture later.

Just kidding about forgetting the rest of yah. Maybe it would work if we took it state by state.
Hey the hood guys will soon need to be certified to clean hoods. Some already have the certification in place. This campaign is organized by the fire protection people, trying to keep the fly by nights out of their business.

David Saulque ,

Your one of the few of us licensed. The state of California requires it or you elected to be ready when they do? Correct me I may be mistaken but I thought you mention this to me once.

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Ron Marshal Phoenix AZ
1-888-fleetwash

tzahlman · Feb 7, 2001

Ron
If you want to start state by state one person in Illinois is interested in getting involved in the state licensing idea. I'm still kind of new but take my business very seriously and agree that a level of professionalism should be a standard like every other trade has. Just my thoughts.

Tom @CleanImage Powerwashing-----------------

[This message has been edited by tzahlman (edited February 06, 2001).]

Jon · Feb 7, 2001

Hey Guys,

I am starting another new business and I think this is right up Ron's alley

School name is AZCA mail order certifaction for pressure washers. This school is mail order only and cash up front, all who sign up are guaranteed a diploma as 

Certified Pressure Washers of America.

More details to follow and an address to send checks to. The cost shall be based on the number of students.

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Jon Fleischer
Oasis Pressure Cleaning
(909) 792-2247
Fax (909) 792-5633

[This message has been edited by Jon (edited February 07, 2001).]

Cody · Feb 7, 2001

Nice SCAM Jon!!

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Hydro-Emulsification Surface Preparation Specialist

Jon · Feb 7, 2001

Cody,

It was worth a try

.

Back to the drawing board.

Ron:
You asked if a contractors license is required in California, only if you do water blasting, not pressure washing.

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Jon Fleischer
Oasis Pressure Cleaning
(909) 792-2247
Fax (909) 792-5633

[This message has been edited by Jon (edited February 07, 2001).]

Glenn · Feb 7, 2001

Jon, I put my $5 in the mail today.
Glenn

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"Hmmm, If everyone has a photographic memory... mine must be out of film.

[This message has been edited by Glenn (edited February 07, 2001).]

Craig Knight · Feb 7, 2001

Dang Glenn,

You must have went all out and got the Platinum certification, i had to just go with the $3 Gold.

Craig

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Craig Knight
www.powerwashunlimited.com

Scott Stone · Feb 7, 2001

We could do it. We would need to start with a plan of attack and of course develop a training program. The next thing would be to advertise it so that companies would only use certified contractors. This would give them an added measure of protection as well. There are a few things that I would want if we were to do something like this.
1. Jon could not be in charge. I didn't like the name.

2. A group insurance policy. We both know an agent that would have the ability and experience to pull it off. What is more is that between you and me they kind of have a grip on pressure washing. Another advantage is that it would let us notify customers if the company had been decertified for some reason.
3. A training program for the different disciplines in the industry.
4. Of course, some kind of group advertising that would accentuate that we have a certification process. We would not control prices and when companies called they would be given a list of contracotrs to choose from. It would require someone totally uninvolved in pressure washing to administer this part of the program. Hence, we would need some sort of annual certification fee.
5. Then of course, the beloved bumper stickers. This would also put out that there was a certification process and that people would know that a particular company was certified.

Right off the top of my head these are the biggies. I am sure that there are others. I know that I would not want to try to compete with the PWNA. It would have to be an organization with a totally different goal. I could also see it as a marketing tool.

Ron, I know you are timid about letting people know what you think, but tell me what you think of this.

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Any statement that I make about equipment, processes or your hair color is my own personal opinion. I usually base it on personal experience. If you disagree with me you are free to reply on both the BBS and by e-mail. If I am totally off base please explain why on the BBS so that we may all know why

Bus. Phone 480-834-3434
Cell Phone 602-509-9741

Mike Hughes · Feb 7, 2001

I think its a great idea........I just wish it could be done within the PWNA. They already have three certification programs in place, and are working on others (i think).

If we could just get them to take this on, it would cut the amount of effort in half.

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Mike Hughes
Everclear
Souderton, PA

Dan Flynn · Feb 8, 2001

I think they should. I really don't see why they wouldn't. It would help grow the thing. At this point there is minimal reason to stay with them. Name the benefit? You can spend the 1000 bucks to go and look at the equipment with out being a member. I think that they have done a lot, and positioned themselves to do big things. To retain members you have to have a reason.
Some say it takes time. 8 or 9 years is a enough time to establish some sort of benefit other than discounts on hotel rooms and rental cars. Yes they offer training. Which is a great start. But after that. NOW WHAT? Brotherhood for a grand a year. Meaning traval, hotel and fee's. We get that on the net for way less.

After a few classes what's left. Other than the training, which is very important. The certification means nothing if no one knows about it. Try it the next time you're on a lead. Tell your customer that you are a certified pressure cleaner.

While if said just right, may sound professional. You wont get much of a reaction. What sells the job is your ability to sell or the prospects willingness to settle for less. All depends on factors and numbers. It would be nice to have certification to back you, if it meant something. How about using their strength to push the states to require certification in order to operate pressure washing equipment for a fee. Meaning in order to run a business in the pressure cleaning industry you must have proper training and certified some way.

By using there power to offer real benefits will really explode it's size. I wonder what the true drive behind the organization really can be.

Group insurance should be in place already for members. Among other things. I really would like to support them. They are as close to really making things happen as anyone will get for a long time. I am not sure if I will rejoin this year.

I want to make sure everyone knows I am in full support of the PWNA. I am not knocking there idea or existence. I hope they read these messages and use the feed back.

Maybe we should have a forum for both members of the PWNA and interested contractors to offer suggestions and feed back they can work with. It's kind of hard to hear the word of the people when you have contact with them once or twice a year.

Public offerings are heard with a larger EAR. There are a ton of washers out there that have none clue about the PWNA and a tone more that do, yet are not members. That is a lot of people that can support the PWNA. Which will increase the benefits to all members.

I also wonder about some of the structure and the potential conflict of interests.

Bottom line. They have the foundation. It just seems that there should be some more substantial benefits by now. I think to myself, I must join and support, or it wont prosper. Yet how long can you hold onto that thought with out results.

Then again, you don't see me chasing them down or calling them up to offer my concerns or help. Maybe it's are fault.

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Dan Flynn
Timberland Power Wash
www.powerwash.net
Houston, Texas.

Ron Musgraves · Feb 12, 2001

Cody,

If you just rinsed the concrete then they would not need a pw but maybe just maintenance man. We are in the pw business not maintenance man for hire.

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Ron Marshal Phoenix AZ
1-888-fleetwash

Clean County · Feb 14, 2001

Dan,
You hit the nail on the head. I could not agree with you more. Im still debating on joining the PWNA or not. I could still go to the conventions whether I'm a member or not. I feel guilty in a way if I don't join because I do want to support my fellow powerwashers but is it really worth $250/year to just show support and maybe get a couple of stickers out of the deal. And what support is comming from them to justify that price.
Your right we should get more involved with them to help them along because to get to where they are today they did a fine job but now they should be doing more.
Group insurance no doubt should be in place at this time or at least in the works. In my other Job I am the vice president of my union and it cost the members $360/year to be a member. One of our benefits is that we will cut a check up to $500/year to each member to help pay towards any life insurance,dental bill,doctor bills etc which is a use or lose it benefit so you would be nuts not to. These checks are paid to your doctors,dentist,insurance company's by me so to make it legal. Another words these checks are not made to each member to fatten his wallet which would be illegal but to help him/her to pay a recognized bill thru this union. We have many other tremendous benefits also because we solicit money which gives us alot of power. Just to give you an Idea of how powerful solicitation is:for one we solicit over 5x the money that the members pay to this union combined.
Now I'm not saying that the PWNA can do this which most likely they can not but there is other things along these lines that they can do and with money they can lobby for certain bills etc. and have many benefits to there members who have the proper licenses to do there businesses etc. I can go on but this is just food for thought. -John-

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Ron Musgraves · Feb 15, 2001

Iâ€™m not aware of it, does the pwna have a mission statement. If so what does it say?

I believe that we need to help one another as well as any org. that shares ideas that can be supported. I have always understood the pwna to be a vehicle for trade shows and things like this. Are there common goals that they are trying to accomplish. Can we get these answer and where do we call. If someone gives me a number I will call him or her and find out the question I have.

I think Dan is right we need to be active. We all can benefit from such things.

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Ron Marshal Phoenix AZ
1-888-fleetwash

Craig Lawrence · Feb 16, 2001

Ron,

Call the pwna and ask for Andrew.

301-941-1064

Craig Lawrence

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Dan Flynn · Feb 16, 2001

Craig,

I checked out your web site. Nice job. Did you build the decks on your site? They look great.

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Dan Flynn
Timberland Power Wash
www.powerwash.net
Houston, Texas.

Craig Lawrence · Feb 17, 2001

Hi Dan,

Yes we built the decks. That is the other side of our business. We usually build in Trex but when we build in p.t. we also clean and seal.

Craig

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