HELP...Cedar Tannin Bleed!

[5 Star Johnny]

We have been running into a lot of tannin bleed on cedar decks this season, and wondering how many of you are experiencing the same situation. We are in the Midwest (S.E. WI), and wondering if our region is worse than elsewhere. We currently use X-100 Natural Seal (preservative) and wondering if those of you using similar preservative formulas have been experiencing this more than those that may use "hard finish" stains. Although the decks that are black clean up readily, it is sometimes difficult to explain to the customer that this is a natural occurence. We understand that high humidity and high temps contribute, both of which have been extreme this season.

Are you experiencing this too, or have you in the past? Is there a product that seems to prevent it? How have your customers tolerated it? What are some of the approaches you use to explain, avoid or rectify the issue? Any input is appreciated.

 

[PetersonDecks]

CTG bleed

yes, we are having the same problems in metro area of minneapolis. X-100 Reps said they have solved the problem but i still have issues with the decks getting black streaks. i know it is easy to wash off, but frustrating that the problem has not been solved. i use to be 90% X-100 specifically cedar tone gold but now maybe 10% because of the constant performance problems.
John Peterson, Peterson Deck Restoration

 

[reedsterstl]

I do 99% cedar here in the St. Louis area. I can honestly say in 6 years I have seen tannin bleed twice. Both instances were when I rinsed the brightner off. I leave the brightner/neutrilizer on now after cleaning/stripping cedar. I use an Oxallic blend brightner, which knocks down tannin (this goes back to decks 101 ). I would suggest try leaving the oxallic brightner on the deck and not rinsing it. I know others do rinse, but I don't. I use pirmarily ReadySeal and it prefers an acidic deck.

Hope you get it worked out.
reed

 

[5 Star Johnny]

Thanks to both responses. John, I believe you responded to a previous post of ours, pertaining to the same situation. I have been working with the field techs & our distribution rep diligently to resolve the issue. Unfortunately, if this is simply a natural occurence, there's little that can prevent it. All said and done, it has cost me endless hours of investigation, explanation, time & materials. Not to mention the potentially devastating discord with our clients.

Reedster, doesn't leaving the oxalic formula to dry on the wood create crystalizing? We use ABR X-180 concentrate, 5:1. I have not tried the no rinse process on a deck, but have applied it to outdoor furniture or repair boards at our shop & left it overnight without rinsing. I have always seen crystals on the material the next day. I would think this would interfere with proper penetration of the preservative if not rinsed thoroughly. Are you using a different product/formula that allows finish application without rinsing? I have investigated testing ReadySeal, but am not comfortable with the interruption in my distribution chain.

Anyone!! My understanding is that most "true" preservatives are "soft finish" products that allow tannins, moisture, etc. to flow through the material, eventually settling on top of the finish. Oppositely, "hard finish" products (stains, film formers) create a skin that does not allow this flow. Although I believe the soft finish materials are better for the wood, is it logical to believe that the hard finish products do not see the same tannin issue because the tannins get trapped in the wood, darkening the wood itself rather than being allowed to escape to the top? Is anyone else using "true" preservatives that do not have the same tannin bleed issue, and what is the brand? Is this primarily a Midwest issue, due to our climate? All input is appreciated.

 

[reedsterstl]

I do not get the crystalization with the blended oxallic I use. On new cedar, I would agree that you are more apt to get the crystal formation, but on older cedar I do not.

 

[Sunny1]

Finishes

You're on the right track thinking about the film formers, and penetrants, preformance on the wood. However, I have seen both be "breathable" (allowing moisture, tannins, to be released) through the finish. Some do not breath, and I would suggest not using those. Ready Seal fully penatrates, and does allow the wood to breath so no traping of the tannis should occur. Tannins move when liquid is present. The use of a brightener drives them in, and once a sealer is applied, no liquid gets to the tannins, so they remain deep in the wood. When washing cedar wood is is advisable to wash with a bleach water/soap mix, and simple rinse with little to no pressure. This allows the sun-degraded fibers to remain in tact on the surface of the wood. Tannins won't be as much of an issue, and the fibers will absorb more sealer. I have taken many calls from guys working with cedar, and once they make this washing change, alot of the problems they experience seem to go away. Using a wood britener is always recommended. Cedar doesn't seem to take an agressive wash real well, partly due to what I mentioned above about the fibers. The more you wash away, the more you expose the "fresher" fibers, that usually are higher in oils, and extractants. Reed is correct about not washing off the brightener, when using RS. I can't always say the same thing about other sealers though. The crystals can be blown or swept off prior to sealing, but even if left there, there will not be adverse effect.